Comments on: Why Churches Split: A Family Systems Explanation

By: Luminita

Luminita — Thu, 29 Sep 2011 07:57:40 +0000

I’m Romanian American and when I read your blog I felt as if I was reading about the Romanian church. This is exactly what happened and still happens in a lot of the Romanian ethnic churches in America. There seems to be one split after another; the congregation (a very small part of the congregation believe it or not) overthrows a pastor because they think it’s all because of him. The pastor leaves and a new one comes, serves the church for a few good years and the same problems arise. Guess what? We need a new pastor again, that must be the problem. So, we get another pastor only to throw him away when other problems arise. I’m not when and if ever this will end. I don’t know what really happens in the Romanian church or the Korean one but I’m very tempted to go read the book you mentioned. Maybe I should write my thesis on it

By: Catholica Coreana

Catholica Coreana — Sat, 29 May 2010 18:32:28 +0000

I stumbled across your blog and this post while looking up information about Korean immigrant churches. As a Korean Catholic, I do not share nearly the same theological views as most of your readers do, but I find this blog post nevertheless interesting, as we do not have church separating. We do have however another more problematic issue relating to generation divide between the older generation and the younger generation, which are more assimilated with the American culture and eventually leave religion all together after they leave the household. I have written some of this on my blog.

By: Charley Shurtz

Charley Shurtz — Fri, 07 May 2010 12:33:21 +0000

First, in reading the comments it strijes me that this is a universal problem and the emeshed church can and is found any were on the planet. Some things that could be fleshed out or looked into are, the redemptive quality of anyones race does not exist in any form. Redemption is and onle found in the blood of Jesus Christ. Next, realize this is not a Korean problem but an any cultural problem. It may seem more prevalant when a certain group is a minority church living in another country but that alone often gives the greater focus on emeshment, also the blending of the cultures and the precieved losses of ethnocentric identities may bring forward the focus on protectionism steeped in emeshment. Actuality, ethmicity came about due to the Tower of Babel and when it is written there will be every nation, tounge and tribe yet no one will be married or given in marrage, the possibility of a dynamic that allows for the differnce in ethnic peoples but not marriage could be something to ponder. Marriage and family are, in all cultures, a very important part of who and what we are, maybe as much if not more than the language we use or how we look. How you are brought up and how that affects you is possibly one of the most strongest binding elements of a culture. If this is so to any degree then maybe the arguement of emeshed ment is more of a learned responce for protection or control, aside from ethnicity, rather than ethnic idenity or preservation. What needs to be shown, taught and lived is that Jesus Christ is more than willing to love, give, honor and die for us in any culture. Having done so the christian life, alone and with out heavy influence from other culture changes the direction of any and all culture that he has entered. As the gospel has spread the truth of the Light and life of Christ has changed culture, everywhere. Much of the strulggle seen in any church is the one people go throug to become Christ like, to become a son or daughter of the King of Kings. If we look deep enough, dig far enough, strecth or selves and grow more, we may find that the simple truth is that an emeshed church needs to mature in the things of God, laying aside self for the leading of the Holy Spirit. Now that will change some of anyones culture. Possibly the struggle is that all have sinned and we are trying to define who we are by how we where born the first time rather than the commonality of who we are becoming by our second birth. Blessing and a great area for study and deveopement.

By: John

John — Mon, 03 May 2010 13:34:44 +0000

Interesting points. Have you finished the book? If so, what are you final impressions. In my life I’ve been through five church break ups. Here are my tentative conclusions:
1. Since the Korean-American church is an immigrant one, which is often times marginalized and experiences status inconsistency (lower status in American than perhaps their homeland), they seek to find their identity in the church. Hence, the church becomes a place where people jockey for power. Conflict ensues.
2. Pastors, who should retire or move on, do not, because there is no retirement plan for them. They need to hold on, even if they are no longer bearing fruit.
3. Denominations, often times, do not protect the church, but their pastors (a horrible example of cronyism).
4. Generally speaking, there seems to be sense of insecurity, which masks itself in pride – probably due to the difficult circumstances many 1st generation have experienced in a developing country and a country that needs to be highly competitive to thrive. When these things are brought into the church, it creates incredible conflict, because these things are antithetical to the gospel.

By: diane elliott

diane elliott — Wed, 07 Apr 2010 20:13:58 +0000

helpful article, not just for Koreans!

By: elderj

elderj — Tue, 14 Oct 2008 22:19:06 +0000

Dave – thanks for your thoughtful response to my brief inquiry and for your delineation of ethnic verses ethnocentric. I share your passion and concern for reaching diverse peoples, yet also know that such a pursuit can become as much as an idol as the aforementioned ethnocentric church. In my experience multiethnic groups tend to be diverse in one dimension (ethnicity) but exceedingly homogeneous in others (income, culture, education, politics) and often ethnic specific groups are more diverse in other ways.

In an diverse society, a multiethnic subcultural group (i.e. church)tends naturally to default to the dominant culture of society, which is why the early church transitioned rather quickly into being dominated by Greek culture and thinking even though its roots were Jewish and the congregations themselves were multiethnic. so I tend to be pessimistic about the prospects of ME congregations to be anything other monoculturally multiethnic

By: Dave Ingland

Dave Ingland — Tue, 14 Oct 2008 09:49:46 +0000

elderj, being in California, at some point we will see that caucasians will become the minority in this state. However, even then I don’t think having a church of predominantly white Americans in California would ever be considered ethnic. Of course, there are races of people with white skin like Russians that have ethnocentric ministries.

To me the difference between ethnic and ethnocentric is the focus or mission. Some churches that are led by Korean pastors will reach Korean people. No matter how hard they try to be multi-cultural if it starts attracting mostly Koreans, it is hard to see that change. They could play country music for worship and offer hot dogs and apple pie after service, but it probably will remain a predominantly Korean congregation. However, some congregations with Korean pastors focus on reaching just Koreans. They have worship that is familiar to Korean people and will use illustrations in the sermon that speak to Koreans. Therefore, they will attract Koreans. The same is true for African-Americans or Hispanic-Americans or any other ethnic group. If they intend on reaching just their own ethnicity they can easily achieve that goal.

As an example there is a lot of diversity in Houston, TX yet when I watch broadcasts of Joel Osteen I see a predominantly white congregation. When I watch Bishop TD Jakes on tv I see a predominantly black congregation. While I don’t think either of these two pastors are intentional in seeing the church be predominantly one race of people over another, I don’t they do much to change it. In contrast though, I know a lot of caucasians that like TD Jake’s preaching, but I doubt they would ever regularly attend the service if they lived in Dallas.

This is the dilemma of the church that speaks to one ethnicity. It is something that as a Japanese or Asian pastor that is burdened for all people in a somewhat urban and very diverse community in Sacramento I am faced with. Some may not connect because of their perceptions of me being Asian. Some may want to connect because I am Asian. As I leave my position at the Korean-American church where I currently serve to plant a daughter church which is going to be intentionally multi-cultural from its leadership to its music and messages, I have to be concerned about how it will be received in a community with a lot of diversity, yet not one multi-cultural. In the end, it’s completely up to God and I must receive whomever he sends and love them and disciple them as Christ would.

By: Dave Ingland

Dave Ingland — Tue, 14 Oct 2008 09:35:01 +0000

David, I received your heart for the church before I ever replied. I respect your insight on this and know that being involved in Korean-American churches must almost be like being a part of a denomination like the PCUSA where ordaining gay men and women could be divisive and in disagreement with the theology of many in the local church, yet they are steadfast in supporting the overall goodness of what comes from being a part of the denomination. So, I applaud you for your faithfulness and for your desire to see transformation.

I’m thinking maybe you see this in a similar manner as I do. I think as the old school first generation leads the Korean-American church that it will eventually end up repelling the future generations from wanting to keep it going. They may branch of into Anglo or multi-cultural churches, yet some part of them will want to retain their culture, especially for the sake of their children growing up. Eventually things may go back to the older ways with fresh leadership and a more gospel-centered approach. The same is true for the church in general. We can all try to be consumeristic and seeker-sensitive, but at some point what the people will crave will be getting back to being real, living out a life of faith and desiring to see the word of God be the key to salvation and not the works of man. What was once thought of as old will soon become new again. Thanks for the dialog!